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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0000782Dwarf FortressDwarf Mode -- Noblespublic2010-04-08 01:552012-02-26 11:53
ReporterHundred Assigned ToToady One  
PrioritylowSeverityminorReproducibilityrandom
Status resolvedResolutionfixed 
Product Version0.31.01 
Summary0000782: [SPOILERS] Mayor mandates items of HFS material
DescriptionMy mayor recently demanded items made of slade, which are as far as I know impossible to create normally. The dwarf in question also has slade as one of his preferences.
TagsNo tags attached.

Relationships

has duplicate 0002227 resolveduser6 Slade mandates 
related to 0007590 resolvedToady One [SPOILERS] Mayor demands items of new HFS material (shiny, frosty, etc metal) 
child of 0000823 resolvedToady One "Native" ores use METAL_TEMPLATE, can supposedly be used for "sharp blades" and studding (doesn't work) 

Activities

CyberGenesis

2010-04-09 13:42

reporter   ~0002417

slade as a pref just means they like it, and probably used it somewhere outside of your fortress before moving.

As a mandate though, thats kinda annoying. But i guess it ranks up there with wanting shells for artifacts when there arent any turtles or shells on a given embark. Im assuming theres no 100% chance your embark contains the ability to make slade

anomaly

2010-04-09 13:46

reporter   ~0002418

Last edited: 2010-04-09 13:47

 Cybergenesis: If you don't know what slade is or how it works, you shouldn't add a note to this topic.

resonancefactor

2010-04-09 15:02

reporter   ~0002434

Kill him. Should be the fate of any noble who's demands get too ridiculous.
Not worth dealing with the jailtime/hammering.

anomaly

2010-04-09 19:23

reporter   ~0002490

We should keep conversations related to this bug.

His demands aren't 'ridiculous,' they're a bug. Slade cannot be used to create any sort of item that I'm aware of and therefore should not be a material on the possible preferences list.

Jimmy

2010-04-09 19:25

reporter   ~0002492

Yes, I agree that slade should be excluded from a dwarf's personality preferences. It's as logical as having a preference for semi-molten rock.

DoctorZuber

2010-04-09 20:27

reporter   ~0002498

s'far as I know, they never demanded items made out of admamantite either, so it's pretty extreme to demand slade even if it is possible.

Shadowlord

2010-04-10 13:36

reporter   ~0002638

I just had a dwarf mandate the construction of slade items, and the dwarf isn't even a noble (Well, he's purple, but isn't on the nobles screen, but then the surgeons are all purple too). However, he USED to be mayor. (Oddly his z screen shows required office stuff still) Looks like that bug has already been reported too, however.

Guess I'll have to have him executed. Twice.

Zas

2010-04-10 14:13

reporter   ~0002643

Slade can be mined and then used like a normal rock, can't it? Anyway, I had a different problem - I had a mayor mandate construction of clay items. I have clay alright, but as far as I know mining clay and making anything out of it is not (yet) implemented. I also have an artifact that is listed as 'clay figurine'. The dwarf who created it didn't use any clay, only logs, bones, leather and gold nuggets.

Kagus

2010-04-10 16:51

reporter   ~0002676

Slade cannot be mined or extracted in any way (aside from the oddball occurrence of a perfectly-located cavein, but that's nothing to bet on), so it can't be made into anything.

And there have been a number of reports in the old versions of dwarves demanding items made out of adamantine. They generally didn't live long...

Shadowlord

2010-04-11 23:09

reporter   ~0002987

Okay, I don't think this is quite so minor, since we can't actually KILL the mayor or former mayor, without triggering another bug, which causes the loss of noble positions. D:

So I look forward to many more slade mandates in the future, I suppose.

Hundred

2010-04-12 12:55

reporter   ~0003115

The current workaround for all inconvenient mandates is to simply never appoint a sheriff or captain of the guard. This will simply produce a bad thought for the noble and none of your dwarves get hurt, as far as I remember.

smjjames

2010-04-16 11:16

reporter   ~0003875

Yea, this is technically normal since Adamantine showed up as a preference in 40D.

Kagus

2010-04-16 12:30

reporter   ~0003885

Yes, but at least it's possible to make Adamantine items. It is utterly IMpossible to make anything out of Slade.

CultOftheRaven

2010-04-18 13:37

reporter   ~0004102

I have a noble doing this as well.
also, I looked up slade in the manager, and it lists 'stud with slade' as a job.

Spiders Everywhere

2010-05-02 22:54

reporter   ~0005973

I've got a dwarf with this preference (fortunately not a noble). Interestingly, slade is the second item on his preference list, indicating it's his favorite metal, not stone. Consequence of METAL_TEMPLATE I suppose.

dark0153

2010-05-22 17:13

reporter   ~0007206

In a 0.31.04 fort i currently have 3 mayors of which 1 mandates "make slade items 2/2", he has slade as his 1st preference, followed by horn silver

i can upload a save if needed

so far i enjoy the dwarven justice my battle axe equipped captain of the guard applies around the fortress due to impossible mandates and requests

MrWiggles

2010-05-22 18:53

reporter   ~0007209

I think it can be a preference. They can like something, the dorf just have to understand eventually what they can make items out of.

This is a long standing issue of nobles demanding for objects to be made out of materials that aren't available. It should respect the stock screen really.

Quietust

2010-09-02 12:48

reporter   ~0012358

Last edited: 2010-09-02 12:49

 Almost definitely a result of 0000823, which allows the dwarf to prefer slade as a metal (rather than a stone) and thus makes it a valid material for issuing material-based mandates.

hyndis

2010-09-02 15:26

reporter   ~0012362

Dwarves can like both metal and stone.

Nobles have a long, proud history of making utterly absurd and impossible to fulfill demands.

Nobles have also had a long, proud history of suffering "unfortunate accidents."

I'm not sure how this is a bug.

user6

2010-11-21 12:37

  ~0014114

Does this still occur in 0.31.18?

Drikon

2011-02-05 00:07

reporter   ~0014995

In the story line of Dwarf Fortress, it says that demons/ultra_demons can manipulate slade. So if you choose to play a demon race then making slade items should be theorectically possible to meet noble demands for slade items.

Perhaps the noble is demon possessed when in a strange mood? That's what demons do, they possess dwarves and play shady games with slade.

Slade is in the raw files so it's not specifically "slade" items that you don't want to be demanded from nobles but items that have the [UNDIGGABLE] token in the inorganic-material-item's raw file. Therefore it's not really "slade" that is buggy. But perhaps the UNDIGGABLE token found in the raw-files.

You could feasibly "fix" this "bug" yourself. You can remove the [UNDIGGABLE] tag from the slade definition in the raw file. I have not tried it but you shouldn't even have to regenerate a new world.

[for an alternate idea to simulate UNDIGGABLE perhaps this...]
You could also then make Slade REALLY heavy or big so noone can move it (I don't know how big the numbers are to stop a dwarf from moving it) effectively making it appear to be "unminable".

Also, while the unmined Slade's "material/mineral" appearance is not alterable (much), for the Slade STONE you could use the "space" character for it's visual and make it a pure color. (To me slade sounds black). So it would look like an undiscovered square (using the original graphics, not the new tilesets). So it would get mined but stay put just like the undiggable square is. I presume this is possible. Of course nobles could still demand it but you would therotically still could not meet that noble's demand.

Your flag as a bug brings up a good point though. But this can be converted into a feature request instead of a bug. There are mods that allow other races as a playable civilization.

Theorectically there could be a "demon" civ. Think of the movies/books "Krull" - the fortress in that story or even Lord of the Ring Sauron's mountain or even Saurmon's White tower, or the book Thomas Covenant Series, his castle floating in some void- all "fortresses very slade-like and crusial to their stories.

In the dwarf fortress story, adaminatine, the living metal, is the counter to the demon's slade. Adamantine is a metal the demons CAN'T manipulate. It has been said that if the demons knew that a copper pick could mine adamantine then all hell would break loose (because then they could escape thier adamantine prisons). However I like to think that it is not copper or demon material that prevents them from reshaping adamantine but the demon's SPHERE of being -EVIL- and the [DEMON] entity token in their raw-file definitions (see string dump on world.dat).

[BREAKING down an idea]
Dwarves can use the MINING skill(an implied skill token in the file: creature_standard.txt) and the MINER profession token, found in the file: entity_default.txt-[PERMITTED_JOB:MINER], and perahps the [DIGGER:ITEM_WEAPON_PICK] matters here too, to convert certain items, on the map, known as "inorganic material" into the movable item the "stone" or boulder.

Dwarves can use another skill, MASONRY (an implied skill token which can be used in the file: creature_standard.txt might look like this: [NATURAL_SKILL:MINING:1]) and the MASON profession token, usable in the file: entity_default.txt-[PERMITTED_JOB:MASON], which allows said dwarf to convert the "stone" item into a different movable item on the map, like blocks or metal ore. Then another skill and profession to convert it to metal bars.

The trend I'm laying out here is professions allowed to a civilation, like the dwarf entity(equals civilization) in the "entity" file, and the skills allowed for a creature, define what map items can be converted, moved and used by a creature.

Therefore, to be consistant, the demon creature and demon civ (undefined as of yet) should have a profession and skill that allows manipulation of a specific material, slade. And other cives should not have these SLADE_MINER job/profession and SLADE_MINER skill tokens in their definitions.

BUT I like the simplicity of the [UNDIGGABLE] token. Perhaps the feature change could be to change the [UNDIGGABLE} token syntax to [UNUSABLE_EXCEPT:DEMON:MINER:MINER] where multiple [UNUSABLE_EXCEPTS:] could be done like the [SYN_...] symtom tokens and DEMOM being a TYPE could also be a SPHERE TYPE token. This would allow for another dimension/challenge of the game, thus more "fun".

Items made from materials with SPHERE alignments... Think of all the sphere types! You could have evil aligned weapons. or flutes made from materials with [UNUSABLE_EXCEPT:SPHERE:THUNDER] making a Thunder flute usable by Storm giants, etc. Or perhaps make the items carry-able but the effects "active" if the carrier has the same SPHERE as the material the item is made from.

And to stretch the notion a bit more: convert the [UNDIGGABLE] tag not just into [UNUSABLE_EXCEPT but also [ONLY_USABLE_BY:...:...], and [CAN_HAUL_EXCEPT:SPHERE:type] prevents a specif creature for carring and/or [CAN_HAUL:SPHERE:type] allows only specific creature to carry (or combine with another item], [CAN_MAKE: and [CAN_CRAFT_EXCEPT:, [CAN_DESTROY: + [CAN_DESTROY_EXCPT: ...can and cannot with the following... usable/unsuable, carry/haul, make/craft/produce{product:}, destroy/deconstruct, enchant, convert, link (as in level/floodgate), reacts_with, trade it, find it, see it, touch it, mount it, train it, etc, think of others...

And further, add a sub token [REACTS_WITH:sphere|material|creature:-reaction-] where this acts like a trigger where a Light sphere'd items touches with a dark sphere'd item an explosion could occur or both items evaporate without much fuss or some such thing.

ALSO: When a noble demands something that is not producable, said noble can cause .fun. Instead of just the happiness of said demanding dwarf being effected, or in addition to, why not have a flag of loyalty or friendship that is reduced by all dwarfs not exempt for meeting that demand and instead of just the noble's happiness being effected, have other dwarfs in a synronized action react to said crazy dwarf at some point... think Julius Ceasar's murder, an uprising or conspiracy instead of a single crazed noble-demanding dwarf?

user11

2011-02-05 08:02

  ~0014997

Drikon, please keep your reports to info directly related to the original bug report.

Open discussion of ideas should be posted on the appropriate forum: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0

Alumine

2011-04-25 03:11

reporter   ~0017504

@Footkerchief Yes. Still occurs in 0.31.25

Quietust

2011-10-13 09:59

reporter   ~0018796

The bugfix for 0000823 (which was added in version 0.31.13) should prevent this from ever happening again, but worlds generated in versions 0.31.12 would continue to exhibit this problem indefinitely.

Alumine: in what version was your current world generated?

user11

2011-10-15 09:22

  ~0018820

Reminder sent to: Alumine

You confirmed this bug as happening in 31.25 - was your world generated in 31.25 or in a previous version (specifically 31.13 and prior)? Please note if you are using any mods.

user11

2011-10-15 09:23

  ~0018821

Depending on Alumine's answer, if there is an answer, we can change this to be a fixed child of 0000823 as it does seem to be a root cause.

user11

2011-12-11 09:49

  ~0019131

No reply from Alumine, so marking this as a fixed child of 0000823.

Hundred, if you can reproduce this in a current version, please reopen this report and post what info you have.

If anyone else can reproduce this in a current version, please PM on the forums and I'll reopen it with your info.

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
2010-04-08 01:55 Hundred New Issue
2010-04-08 02:02 user6 Summary Mayor mandates slade items. => [SPOILERS] Mayor mandates items of HFS material
2010-04-09 13:42 CyberGenesis Note Added: 0002417
2010-04-09 13:46 anomaly Note Added: 0002418
2010-04-09 13:47 anomaly Note Edited: 0002418
2010-04-09 15:02 resonancefactor Note Added: 0002434
2010-04-09 19:23 anomaly Note Added: 0002490
2010-04-09 19:25 Jimmy Note Added: 0002492
2010-04-09 20:27 DoctorZuber Note Added: 0002498
2010-04-10 13:36 Shadowlord Note Added: 0002638
2010-04-10 14:13 Zas Note Added: 0002643
2010-04-10 16:51 Kagus Note Added: 0002676
2010-04-11 23:09 Shadowlord Note Added: 0002987
2010-04-12 12:55 Hundred Note Added: 0003115
2010-04-16 11:16 smjjames Note Added: 0003875
2010-04-16 12:30 Kagus Note Added: 0003885
2010-04-18 13:37 CultOftheRaven Note Added: 0004102
2010-05-02 22:54 Spiders Everywhere Note Added: 0005973
2010-05-15 21:20 Logical2u Relationship added parent of 0001887
2010-05-16 00:34 user6 Relationship added related to 0001817
2010-05-22 17:13 dark0153 Note Added: 0007206
2010-05-22 18:53 MrWiggles Note Added: 0007209
2010-06-09 12:51 user6 Relationship added has duplicate 0002227
2010-09-02 12:48 Quietust Note Added: 0012358
2010-09-02 12:49 Quietust Note Edited: 0012358
2010-09-02 15:26 hyndis Note Added: 0012362
2010-11-21 12:37 user6 Note Added: 0014114
2010-11-21 12:37 user6 Tag Attached: AWAITING UPDATE
2011-02-05 00:07 Drikon Note Added: 0014995
2011-02-05 08:02 user11 Note Added: 0014997
2011-04-25 03:11 Alumine Note Added: 0017504
2011-10-13 09:59 Quietust Note Added: 0018796
2011-10-15 09:22 user11 Note Added: 0018820
2011-10-15 09:23 user11 Note Added: 0018821
2011-10-15 09:26 user11 Relationship deleted parent of 0001887
2011-10-15 09:35 user11 Relationship deleted related to 0001817
2011-12-11 09:47 user11 Tag Detached: AWAITING UPDATE
2011-12-11 09:49 user11 Note Added: 0019131
2011-12-11 09:49 user11 Status new => resolved
2011-12-11 09:49 user11 Resolution open => fixed
2011-12-11 09:49 user11 Assigned To => user11
2011-12-11 09:49 user11 Relationship added child of 0000823
2011-12-11 15:05 user11 Status resolved => assigned
2011-12-11 15:05 user11 Assigned To user11 => Toady One
2011-12-11 15:05 user11 Status assigned => resolved
2014-07-23 13:01 user6 Relationship added related to 0007590