View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | View Status | Date Submitted | Last Update |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0010132 | Dwarf Fortress | Civilizations/Entities -- General | public | 2017-02-03 01:28 | 2017-02-04 05:19 |
| Reporter | FantasticDorf | Assigned To | |||
| Priority | normal | Severity | minor | Reproducibility | always |
| Status | new | Resolution | open | ||
| Product Version | 0.43.05 | ||||
| Summary | 0010132: Plant products require to be edible to be used by civilisations | ||||
| Description | As title implies, more specifically they will not embark or sell you products that do not have [EDIBLE_RAW] tags in bulk or summary products if [EDIBLE_COOKED] Currently restricting you to buying plump helmets for dwarves as a singular plant option. > [EDIBLE_RAW] on the plant allows you to embark with the full plant itself > [EDIBLE_COOKED] on either its growths or the plant itself will let you embark with the products & growths (doesn't matter which one its assigned to, individually on one or present on both) but not the plant. Inedible plants with inedible seeds etc never will be gathered or appear, for example with [USE_EVIL_PLANTS] relevant civilisations with [OUTDOOR_FARMING] cannot collect abundant silver barbs, or create silver dye/gutter cruor without first having [EDIBLE_COOKED] they will just bypass it completely > Civilisations only offer plants in embark/trade with edible parts (no onion plants, only the edible onion bulbs etc) within the relevant civ tokens. Not selling misc or production only inedible plants prevents the player from acquiring non-native plants to their current settled area. | ||||
| Steps To Reproduce | Very easily for dwarves, add [EDIBLE_RAW] to pig tails in plant_standard, and now you will be able to embark with full pig tail plants (seeds can be cooked even if plant is fully inedible to allow products to be made from it) *see additional noted below* > When you have your raws in place and have observed the plant being available/unavailable from the embark screen, wait for a caravan and order some plants from the trading agreement menu. They will bring them in bulk like they do with plump helmets. | ||||
| Additional Information | Edible by vermin is untested, but doesn't appear to have noticeable impact other than designating its a foodstuff vermin would be interested in eating. > Gutter cruor alcohol from silver barbs already has both edible tags on its product but doesn't automatically flag up the product as being usable, or silver dye suggesting product ediblity doesn't matter but seed/growth/plant edibility does. Silver barbs as previously mentioned are fully inedible. > All of the generic dwarf plants (even dimple cups) has cookable seeds to allow them to offer their products. *However for some unknown reason without edible tags on seeds, they are still supplied. Anybody who knows more on the exclusive nature of underground plants would be helpful to put in a comment to explain* > The stated rules on aboveground plants work that way work as described, being restricted unless ediblity is put in place. Products from inedible plants like hide root with cookable only seeds will be processed later, hence why you can buy dye & dyed clothes from humans with redroot but none of the actual plants like that they cultivate. | ||||
| Tags | civlisations, edible, embark, plants, trade | ||||
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Human caravans can sell dye plant seeds to you. I don't think I've seen papyrus seeds, but humans usually don't settle in swamps. To test the edibility requirement hypothesis you might want to mod papyrus to grow in plains biomes and be ubiquitous and generate a number of embarks to see if humans bring papyrus seeds. I think it makes sense to sell only things that can be used rather than raw materials that have to be processed to be used. From that perspective, the selling of whole plants only when edible whole (whether raw or cooked) is reasonable. Hauling raw materials is a waste of effort, as it's better to haul the processed, higher value and lower weight products. In the same vein, wool isn't sold in its unprocessed (un-spun) form. |
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Its a little bit difficult pinning down the exact causes, im still prodding the game but adding edibility does have a noticable difference like the examples given. In additional notes i mentioned in asterisks that underground plants work differently in relation to this bug than aboveground crop plants, whether its the token [INDOOR GARDEN/FARMING] or a combination of the two having a effect i don't know. I mentioned earlier using the silver barb example, goblins will sit on a [frequency:100] (double than normal) supply in the relevant biomes but will not actively embark with them when given the correct tags ([OUTDOOR_FARMING]) because it is all 1 plant with no growths other than the seeds. They have herbalists & can be given planters very easily and still ignore the plant. As soon as the plant is set to [EDIBLE_COOKED] gutter cruor & silver dye becomes avaiible for use. (with the correct biome settings) Also in 0010131 that trees with a similar predicament wont be used on embark for wood unless they have a growth. (such as adding a nut to a glumprong, a tree that naturally has no growths.) _______________________________________ It's pretty certain they wont sell you what they can't sell you or embark with themselves personally, i didn't dispute that the redroot products (seeds/dye) can't be sold explicitly but the actual hide root plant isn't edible or cookable itself, only the seeds are. They wont sell you the plant in bulk to turn into redroot dye as to collect the seeds instead through production without growing them. (which you might be in the wrong biome to do so) There are bugs going around like on 0006940 where plants that normally are, aren't cookable or brewable (and part of me thinks this is because the seeds & plant are classified the same, in the example of oats (growth) and oat wheat being admired for the same reasons) because they carry the roughly same tags. You can embark with useless strawberry plants (the bugged stalk kind) with [OUTDOOR_FARMING] because the [GROWTH_HOST:TWIGS & BRANCHES] means the fruit is connected to the plant quite literally unless you specifically bring the fruit by itself. Strawberry raw - http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Strawberry/raw ____________________________________ Eating a plant directly is required for getting a seed out of said plant, and cooking a plant yields seeds. If civilizations are not finding the plants sustainable with implied ways other than eating them to collect seeds they might not be farming them rather than using herbalists to collect more regardless. > Using human trade caravans are not even required if you set the plant (lets say papyrus sedge) biome to [BIOME:ANY_LAND] and use a civ with [OUTDOOR_FARMING], and adding both edible tags to the plant does let you embark with the plant itself, seeds & products (if products via reactions are available) |
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Seeds are retrieved from plants by eating them raw (cooking destroys seeds, though), or through the various plant processing versions (threshing, making paper from papyrus, bag processing, and I think one of the press usages [not seed pressing, obviously]). As an aside, check the "D" section on sliver barb on the wiki http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Sliver_barb ;) I did as you suggested: modded papyrus sedge to ALL_LAND and 100%, and gave dwarves outdoor farming, and papyrus seeds showed up in the embark equipment pre embark. Thus, I think the edibility requirement is a false lead. |
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For seeds maybe, good catch (thanks for confirming) but were none of the products available? We could probably rule out edibility = seeds then, as papyrus is consumed by its product reaction to give seeds, telling us that part is probably working correctly. But they aren't passing on the 'unusuable' plant forward In my instructions in the above note (and instructions for pig-tail plants) i explicitly used [EDIBLE_RAW] (activated the pig tail immediately on "plants") and [EDIBLE_COOKED] on the plant (which individually enabled products on the silver barb) and it appeared within my "Plants" embark index. It does have a noticable impact. Put the tokens between the first material tokens (underneath [MATERIALVALUE:1] and [MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT] is a good spot within the structural plant category for the effects i describe. Or just say the report is based that civilisations won't sell/embark with 'useless' plants they don't deem as useful to civilian consumption |
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I see three kinds of dye (dimple cup, red root, emerald) and their seeds, and I also see pig tail and rope reed sheets, but not papyrus (sheets), which seems to confirm there's something not quite right going on. However, I've only generated a single modded world, so it's not exactly conclusive. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017-02-03 01:28 | FantasticDorf | New Issue | |
| 2017-02-03 01:29 | FantasticDorf | Tag Attached: embark | |
| 2017-02-03 01:29 | FantasticDorf | Tag Attached: trade | |
| 2017-02-03 01:29 | FantasticDorf | Tag Attached: civlisations | |
| 2017-02-03 01:29 | FantasticDorf | Tag Attached: edible | |
| 2017-02-03 01:29 | FantasticDorf | Tag Attached: plants | |
| 2017-02-03 02:22 | PatrikLundell | Note Added: 0036252 | |
| 2017-02-03 07:07 | FantasticDorf | Note Added: 0036255 | |
| 2017-02-04 02:28 | PatrikLundell | Note Added: 0036260 | |
| 2017-02-04 03:52 | FantasticDorf | Note Added: 0036261 | |
| 2017-02-04 05:19 | PatrikLundell | Note Added: 0036262 |
