View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | View Status | Date Submitted | Last Update |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0011239 | Dwarf Fortress | Adventure Mode -- Character Creation | public | 2020-01-29 17:34 | 2020-04-29 05:55 |
| Reporter | noxiilarxene | Assigned To | |||
| Priority | low | Severity | minor | Reproducibility | always |
| Status | new | Resolution | open | ||
| Platform | Linux | OS | Xubuntu | OS Version | 18.04 |
| Product Version | 0.47.01 | ||||
| Summary | 0011239: Outsiders Can Start With Any Weapon Skills | ||||
| Description | Human Outsiders seem to be able to start with any weapon now as well as any skill in the game. Before this version, human outsiders could only have a spear and knife weapon skills if I remember correctly. This was not documented as a change for outsiders, so I believe this is unintended. | ||||
| Tags | Intentional/Expected? | ||||
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As anyone can now start with pretty much any skill, I suspect it to be intentional, but this should remain open until confirmed to be intentional. |
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Given this allows abnormal weapons such as whips, crossbows, and any weapon modders might wish to be limited to specific contexts (imagine this with any firearm mod, naked maniac just spawns with a gun), it might not be for the best even if it was intended. |
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I don't see it doing much harm in vanilla, honestly. I actually find it nice to be able to start as an outsider with a sword, pretending I'm a witcher of sorts. At the same time, it does interfere with some of the challenge - but then I'm not sure if the challenge makes sense in the first place, seeing as it's not terribly hard to pick up skills in new weapons. |
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I'm pretty sure its not intended and a roleplay problem. Why should an outsider, who has lived in the wilds their whole life... know how to read? Or persuade people? Or know how to be a mechanic? |
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Your argument depends entirely on a shared definition of "outsider", which I don't believe Toady has provided us with. Perhaps your outsider was raised out in the wilderness, the son of a blacksmith-turned-hermit after said blacksmith was exiled from his country, framed for killing his wife (who was, in point of fact, murdered by the local government for accidentally walking in on corrupt officials in an abandoned house in the middle of plotting a conspiracy). The blacksmith was forced to choose death by hammering or permanent exile with his son, and naturally chose the latter - thus saving the corrupt government from creating a spectacle. While informed that if he ever returned, his life would be forfeit, he did however vow vengeance - through his son - whom he taught the basics of smithing, swordplay, and reading/writing. You now take up the mantle of Ezum Asizzuglar, returning from the wilds after nearly two decades of exile, to exact your own form of justice for the death of your mother. It's not a roleplay problem at all. |
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Definitely a concern for modders though. And while just about every big annoying bug that affects modding has some workaround, this one...not quite. You can make them count as tools at least (unless they need ranged attacks), but that runs into an even worse bug now: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=11372 |
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I think it's silly to disable something for everyone in vanilla just because it makes things a little more difficult for modders - and I say this as from the perspective of a modder myself. As you saw, it's completely trivial to roleplay as an "outsider" with the ability to read, and may even be enticing. What you're actually looking for, then, is a set of creature tokens to control what outsiders from that creature can and can't start with. [OUTSIDER_EQUIPMENT:FORBID:ALL] [OUTSIDER_EQUIPMENT:PERMIT:SPEAR] to forbid everything but spears, or, [OUTSIDER_EQUIPMENT:FORBID:RANGED] [OUTSIDER_EQUIPMENT:FORBID:ARMOR] to just forbid guns and armor, to give a couple potential examples. |
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I just feel like the old behaviour was the intended one because nothing in the patch notes mentioned outsiders having access to all the skills. Let's just see what Toady or a manager can say on it. |
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I was gonna say yeah, this feels like unintended behavior, but that idea of being able to explicitly forbid gear sounds like a great idea to make this even more moddable. Blacklisting tokens at the item level might also work, though it would be less versatile than doing it at the creature level. |
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Possibly related is the fact that it's also permitting equipment to be made from nearly all materials - specifically, it allows every metal that isn't BRITTLE (Bismuth/Pig Iron), DEEP (Adamantine), or DIVINE, so it'll let you bring weapons and armor made of totally inappropriate things like Zinc or Pewter. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2020-01-29 17:34 | noxiilarxene | New Issue | |
| 2020-01-30 04:28 |
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Tag Attached: Intentional/Expected? | |
| 2020-01-30 04:29 |
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Note Added: 0039714 | |
| 2020-02-14 21:39 | chaosvolt | Note Added: 0040061 | |
| 2020-02-15 07:24 | Talvieno | Note Added: 0040064 | |
| 2020-02-15 07:26 | noxiilarxene | Note Added: 0040065 | |
| 2020-02-15 09:07 | Talvieno | Note Added: 0040066 | |
| 2020-02-15 09:07 | Talvieno | Note Edited: 0040066 | |
| 2020-02-15 09:42 | chaosvolt | Note Added: 0040067 | |
| 2020-02-15 10:13 | Talvieno | Note Added: 0040068 | |
| 2020-02-15 10:14 | Talvieno | Note Edited: 0040068 | |
| 2020-02-15 10:15 | noxiilarxene | Note Added: 0040069 | |
| 2020-02-15 10:20 | chaosvolt | Note Added: 0040070 | |
| 2020-04-29 05:55 | Quietust | Note Added: 0040514 | |
| 2020-04-29 05:56 | Quietust | Note Edited: 0040514 |
