View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | View Status | Date Submitted | Last Update |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0002813 | Dwarf Fortress | Dwarf Mode -- Combat | public | 2010-07-24 13:34 | 2011-03-23 13:16 |
| Reporter | Cephas | Assigned To | Toady One | ||
| Priority | normal | Severity | major | Reproducibility | always |
| Status | resolved | Resolution | duplicate | ||
| Product Version | 0.31.11 | ||||
| Fixed in Version | 0.31.22 | ||||
| Summary | 0002813: Glass weapons (in traps) are comically ineffective | ||||
| Description | Masterwork Glass weapons in weapon traps made with exceptional mechanisms will deflect off of the lowest grade armors in existence, namely no-quality cloth / leather / silk. Goblins encountering these traps will walk through 4-10 10x Serrated disks before passing out while still not receiving any injuries. They eventually wake up and trek back out. I assume this draws from the combat changes with all the other materials. Sadly, there's no way to compare values for glass as it isn't in the raws. | ||||
| Tags | glass | ||||
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I just had a bronze Colossus run through 110+ Exceptional 10x Glass Serrated disk traps without a scratch. While it is understandable that it might not die, the fact that material differences result in complete deflection as opposed to conversion to blunt damage feels like a bug to me. |
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Maybe they are too light to do damage? Green glass balls have a weight of 2, which is twice that of a goblet. |
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Huh. I wonder if the density of glass never got updated for the new weight system. |
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Maybe its time for Toady to put glass up in the raws? AFAIK, they aren't. |
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Even a spiked iron ball weighs only 7kg, which works out to about a 10cm diameter sphere plus the spikes (if it was a smooth sphere, it'd be 12cm diameter), which is a pretty reasonable size. An iron statue weighs 471kg while a glass statue weighs 156kg, which puts glass's density at a perfectly acceptable 2.6g/cm^3. The fact that a spiked glass ball weighs only twice that of a goblet means that goblets are way too heavy. |
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Glass in the raws would do it. Probably for balancing purposes make glass be roughly as effective as copper. Glass can have much more of an edge than wood, but not as much of an effective edge as metal due to how fragile glass is. Also glass is heavy. Even if the glass object has no edge or point on it at all the sheer mass of the glass object should cause some hurting. |
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Some digging through the game's memory suggests that glass's YIELD and FRACTURE values are only 10000 (making it about as strong as wood) and the STRAIN_AT_YIELD values are all 0 (making it extremely brittle), which may explain why it's so weak. 0003071 also reveals that glass's MAX_EDGE is undefined (i.e. it's random each time you play), though it's not clear what effect MAX_EDGE has during combat. For those curious, all 3 types of glass have a SOLID_DENSITY of 2600, making it about as dense as any layer stone other than rock salt. |
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I don't know if its relavent but it seems logical to me that a massive creature made of metal could easily walk over traps full of glass spikes and disks unharmed. I would imagine the creatures copper skin would be something like an quarter of a metre thick making any glass weapon not just one massive giant pile driver scratching even copper given its brittleness *kashatter*. |
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The thing is that glass is actually VERY HARD. Harder than most metals, and capable of holding a wicked edge - scored and cracked glass is pretty close to a monofilament edge, and is used for slicing sections for viewing in a tunneling electron microscope. To cut glass, you need gemstone(emerald, corundum, or preferably diamond) tools. Hardened steel may work, but I'm not sure the methods available to dwarves could produce that sort of hardening - some degree of quenching and tempering is required, and I can't readily find a reference as to how finely it must be controlled. Either way, at Mohs 6-7, it's harder than annealed steel, or bronze, or whatever else. We think of glass as weak because it's brittle when extruded in thin sections. A solid mass of glass is actually quite tough - and even if it chips, that just means that you've now exposed a brand new edge. Sharp glass might lose its edge when it hits something like a bronze colossus(or rather, would be left with less projecting "edges", most likely, in the case of a spiked ball), and armor might blunt its effect, but anything relying on solely its surface for protection shouldn't walk away without a scratch. A hit by glass with only yielding material in the way(cloth) should be felt. |
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From a sadomasochist's point of view I really like the glass traps the way they are. Goblin runs in, gets about 100 minor wounds, and then takes a slow painful year to die. That's why you build iron traps beyond the glass ones. The strong get a quick death while the weak suffer. |
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@deathc4 - Problem is, it doesn't work like that. Goblin runs in, gets about 0 wounds at all due to constant deflection, eventually passes out from exertion due to his or her own attempts at dodging and then wakes up a little later to walk right back out. |
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Trap components all do blunt damage, not edged. The issue here is that blunt weapons are currently ineffective. [edit] whoops, nvm, I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that, must have been too short on sleep, gotta check my facts more I've been exploiting the lethality of whips in my current traps, that'll probably be fixed whenever the next version hits though |
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What makes you think that trap components do blunt damage when they all have the edge tag? |
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Though it has been around a month since the last post. Had masterwork glass discs with masterwork mechanisms vs an elf merchant that fell unconscious on one. result was 30x deflected by no quality rope reed fiber cloak. So it looks like glass traps are still busted. Shame, was hoping to make the entire fort out of green glass (sans barrels and beds of course). |
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interestingly, glass spikes seem to be at least capable of passing through normal clothes. |
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@lolghurt Out of curiosity, were these dwarves that you attempted to impale, were the spikes in retractable spike traps, and could you provide some combat logs? |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2010-07-24 13:34 | Cephas | New Issue | |
| 2010-07-25 19:24 | Cephas | Note Added: 0011046 | |
| 2010-07-25 19:24 | Cephas | Note Edited: 0011046 | |
| 2010-07-27 06:59 | Rask | Note Added: 0011155 | |
| 2010-07-27 07:09 |
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Note Added: 0011157 | |
| 2010-07-27 08:15 | smjjames | Note Added: 0011158 | |
| 2010-07-27 08:19 | smjjames | Tag Attached: glass | |
| 2010-07-27 11:04 | Quietust | Note Added: 0011163 | |
| 2010-07-27 11:30 | Quietust | Note Edited: 0011163 | |
| 2010-07-27 11:57 | Quietust | Note Edited: 0011163 | |
| 2010-07-27 11:57 | Quietust | Note Edited: 0011163 | |
| 2010-07-27 12:55 | hyndis | Note Added: 0011166 | |
| 2010-08-19 12:46 | Quietust | Note Added: 0011928 | |
| 2010-08-19 13:08 | Quietust | Note Edited: 0011928 | |
| 2010-08-19 17:10 | Cryten | Note Added: 0011937 | |
| 2010-08-19 17:52 | Logical2u | Relationship added | related to 0003071 |
| 2010-08-19 18:07 | Shurhaian | Note Added: 0011941 | |
| 2010-08-19 18:14 | Shurhaian | Note Edited: 0011941 | |
| 2010-08-19 18:29 | Shurhaian | Note Edited: 0011941 | |
| 2010-08-20 03:26 | deathc4 | Note Added: 0011953 | |
| 2010-08-24 07:17 | Cephas | Note Added: 0012058 | |
| 2010-08-27 13:47 | knofbath | Note Added: 0012174 | |
| 2010-08-27 14:07 | knofbath | Note Edited: 0012174 | |
| 2010-08-28 06:34 |
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Note Added: 0012191 | |
| 2010-08-28 21:52 | knofbath | Note Edited: 0012174 | |
| 2010-10-01 14:21 | Nidor | Note Added: 0013101 | |
| 2010-10-26 01:19 | lolghurt | Note Added: 0013516 | |
| 2010-11-05 08:27 | Cephas | Note Added: 0013628 | |
| 2011-03-02 09:38 |
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Relationship replaced | child of 0003071 |
| 2011-03-09 04:05 | Toady One | Status | new => resolved |
| 2011-03-09 04:05 | Toady One | Fixed in Version | => 0.31.22 |
| 2011-03-09 04:05 | Toady One | Resolution | open => fixed |
| 2011-03-09 04:05 | Toady One | Assigned To | => Toady One |
| 2011-03-23 13:16 |
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Resolution | fixed => duplicate |
