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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0004113Dwarf FortressVegetationpublic2011-03-03 09:492014-09-25 21:29
ReporterAlumine Assigned ToToady One  
PrioritynormalSeverityminorReproducibilityhave not tried
Status resolvedResolutionfixed 
Product Version0.31.19 
Fixed in Version0.40.13 
Summary0004113: Large grazers (elephants and giraffes) can't eat fast enough to keep from starving
DescriptionAside from the path-finding bug, there is another problem.
Even if I permanently move my animals around, so that they find new grass tiles, I noticed Elephants and Giraffes are still always hungry and starving to death after some time.
It's like they can't eat fast enough.
Elephant raw has a note.
       [GRAZER:12] don't have browsing trees yet
So it looks like at some point, they should be able to eat off trees, which should fix the issue of them starving.
TagsNo tags attached.

Relationships

related to 0004018 resolvedToady One Grazing animals don't spread out in pasture zone, starve to death as a result 
related to 0004354 resolvedToady One Giant critters size changed, Grazer not changed 
has duplicate 0006181 resolveduser1294 water buffalos starving to death no matter the size of the pasture 
related to 0004367 resolvedToady One Animals all try to graze from pasture's top left corner, starvation ensues 
related to 0004446 resolvedToady One Grazing hungry animals eat slower - snowballs starvation 
related to 0004962 resolveduser6 War Animals Won't Eat 
related to 0004637 acknowledgedlethosor Elk birds starve to death trying to hatch eggs because of [GRAZER] tag. 

Activities

user6

2011-03-03 09:51

  ~0015709

Reminder sent to: Alumine

Are you able to rule out 0004018 as the cause?

Naros

2011-03-03 12:59

reporter   ~0015714

Last edited: 2011-03-03 13:00

 The only way Elephants will be able to keep from starving is if they ate every tick, and happened to stand on a magical tile of grass that is never depleted.

As it is understood:
1 time unit adds 1 hunger
Eating reduces hunger by 12 units.
Eating or moving requires 10 time units.

Eat + Move = 20 time units. So any grazing creature that has a GRAZER value of less than 20 will starve even on perfect grazing grounds.

Browsing trees will likely solve it for elephants, so it's a matter of waiting for the BROWSER ability to be implemented, in addition to animal feed like hay?

Alumine

2011-03-07 03:18

reporter   ~0015882

yes. 0004018 is definitely not the cause.

animal feed would be awesome!

hyperactiveChipmunk

2011-03-07 11:39

reporter   ~0015910

Confirming. My war rhinos suffer the same fate, it seems.

Nobody fears my emaciated, waif-like rhinos. >8(

DoctorZuber

2011-03-07 11:45

reporter   ~0015914

Noo.... How can we have mighty rampaging elephants if they're all dead!?

Sounds like this calls for a raw edit till this gets fixed proper-like.

Rhenaya

2011-03-08 20:25

reporter   ~0015986

this is even a problem with water buffalos (60 grazer), only cows and upward (120 grazer) dont seem to starve while grazing

Dekon

2011-04-04 12:00

reporter   ~0017062

Can confirm - Yaks seem to barely eventually starve after a long, grueling period - despite being able to constantly consume.

Honestly it just sounds like the amount of hunger eating reduces needs to be upped, with perhaps more food being required for smaller animals (referencing wiki chart on pasture). Yaks shouldn't have to eat -ALL- the time to survive anyway, nor should elephants. While feed/browsing may help, Yaks still won't browse, even when browser is introduced - so they'd still die.

ellindsey

2011-04-04 12:06

reporter   ~0017063

I've been able to keep yaks alive, and even breed them, but only by creating very large pastures and rotating them to new grazing ground after they destroy all the grass in the old one. Also, I keep numbers down to less than half a dozen adults.

Dekon

2011-04-04 12:46

reporter   ~0017065

All I had were two yaks on a 17x21 pasture, and they certainly hadn't consumed everything. They both starved to death.

What -MIGHT- have happened is this - The Yaks were hungry when I put them on the pasture. Hunger slows down activities...which might include eating. If hunger slows down eating, then the Yaks would eat slower, and thus would not be able to maintain themselves. This would snowball, and especially a starving Yak would not be able to survive long.

Alumine

2011-04-14 06:40

reporter   ~0017356

well I modified the grazervalues to a minimum of 100, nothing starved so far.

kwieland

2011-04-14 12:59

reporter   ~0017367

It could be related to the bug that makes animals graze only on the north (west?) corner of a pasture.

Alumine

2011-06-03 07:19

reporter   ~0017926

I think everything on DF starts in the northwest if they have the choice.
If you channel a square in the ground for example, they'll start in the northwest

theothersteve7

2011-07-15 07:09

reporter   ~0018243

From a balance standpoint, the amount of open grassy space you need per animal is awfully high. High enough that animals bigger than alpacas and goats aren't really worth it in practice, especially with milking and shearing where they are, and that cat farming seems like a logical course of action for leather. Dwarves are traditionally decked out in kitten leather.

Raising grazervalues seems like a very wise decision; 60-100 seems a fair minimum given animal stupidity. You may wish to make animal hides not all a constant 1 per animal as well, and to change the milking increment per species.

Kumquat

2011-07-16 10:11

reporter   ~0018260

Indeed. From a realism standpoint, the amount of feed grazers need isn't linearly related to mass. A vole, for instance, needs to eat about its own weight a day to survive, and it's rather ludicrous to imagine an elephant doing so. Larger animals have slower metabolism, and probably also relatively more 'low-metabolism' tissue like fat and bones. A square-root relationship would probably be closer to realism, so you'd get 3 sheep 40kg each eating as much as a single 400kg cow.

Then again, animals from harsh biomes, such as yaks and camels, should thrive with even less, but that probably goes beyond automatic tweaking.

kwieland

2011-07-17 07:58

reporter   ~0018267

I was thinking about this yesterday as I was out hiking. Does it make sense for elephants to live any climate? Probably not. But, you could raise them anywhere with the ability to stock food and feed them "hay" or some such feeding mechanism.

kenoh

2011-09-23 21:46

reporter   ~0018754

Posted this in the suggestion forums. Kumquat has the exact right idea. For the grand majority of animals, for every double in size their metabolism only goes up 75%. It's called Kleiber's Law. I would bet that Toady would like to see the math for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleiber%27s_law

nshapter

2012-08-28 08:54

reporter   ~0023500

^Bump^

This is still the case in 34.11

I have an approximately 20x20 pasture with nothing but one starving Rhinoceros assigned.

ptb_ptb

2014-09-08 07:37

reporter   ~0030033

Last edited: 2014-09-08 07:39

 Water buffalo still starving in 40.11

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
2011-03-03 09:49 Alumine New Issue
2011-03-03 09:51 user6 Note Added: 0015709
2011-03-03 09:51 user6 Relationship added related to 0004018
2011-03-03 09:52 user6 Summary Elephants and similar dying => Elephants and giraffes can't eat fast enough to keep from starving
2011-03-03 12:59 Naros Note Added: 0015714
2011-03-03 13:00 Naros Note Edited: 0015714
2011-03-07 03:18 Alumine Note Added: 0015882
2011-03-07 11:39 hyperactiveChipmunk Note Added: 0015910
2011-03-07 11:45 DoctorZuber Note Added: 0015914
2011-03-08 20:25 Rhenaya Note Added: 0015986
2011-03-27 07:32 user6 Relationship added related to 0004354
2011-03-27 20:49 user6 Relationship added related to 0004367
2011-04-02 13:49 user6 Summary Elephants and giraffes can't eat fast enough to keep from starving => Large grazers (elephants and giraffes) can't eat fast enough to keep from starving
2011-04-04 12:00 Dekon Note Added: 0017062
2011-04-04 12:06 ellindsey Note Added: 0017063
2011-04-04 12:46 Dekon Note Added: 0017065
2011-04-04 13:25 user6 Relationship added related to 0004446
2011-04-14 06:40 Alumine Note Added: 0017356
2011-04-14 12:59 kwieland Note Added: 0017367
2011-06-03 07:19 Alumine Note Added: 0017926
2011-07-15 07:09 theothersteve7 Note Added: 0018243
2011-07-16 10:11 Kumquat Note Added: 0018260
2011-07-17 07:58 kwieland Note Added: 0018267
2011-09-23 21:46 kenoh Note Added: 0018754
2011-12-07 09:28 user6 Relationship added related to 0004962
2012-08-28 08:54 nshapter Note Added: 0023500
2012-08-30 04:07 user1294 Relationship added has duplicate 0006181
2014-08-09 11:32 user6 Assigned To => user6
2014-08-09 11:32 user6 Status new => confirmed
2014-09-08 07:37 ptb_ptb Note Added: 0030033
2014-09-08 07:39 ptb_ptb Note Edited: 0030033
2014-09-12 11:44 Toady One Status confirmed => resolved
2014-09-12 11:44 Toady One Fixed in Version => Next Version
2014-09-12 11:44 Toady One Resolution open => fixed
2014-09-12 11:44 Toady One Assigned To user6 => Toady One
2015-01-03 13:41 user6 Relationship added related to 0004637