View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | View Status | Date Submitted | Last Update |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0007767 | Dwarf Fortress | Creatures | public | 2014-07-31 12:35 | 2018-03-22 10:02 |
| Reporter | Button | Assigned To | |||
| Priority | normal | Severity | minor | Reproducibility | always |
| Status | new | Resolution | open | ||
| Product Version | 0.40.05 | ||||
| Summary | 0007767: [PET] has no meaning for non-[WAGON_PULLER]s, [PACK_ANIMAL]s etc. | ||||
| Description | This is easiest to see at civilization embark. One difference between [PET] and [PET_EXOTIC] is supposed to be that [PET]s can be tamed by non-elves in worldgen. However, this isn't the case for the grand majority of [PET]s. [PET] is necessary but not sufficient for animals local to civ sites to be available on embark. In addition to [PET], the animal must have one of the following: [COMMON_DOMESTIC] [WAGON_PULLER] [PACK_ANIMAL] [GOOD] for civs with [USE_GOOD_ANIMALS] [EVIL] for civs with [USE_EVIL_ANIMALS] [UNDERGROUND_DEPTH] including 1 for use by civs with [USE_CAVE_ANIMALS]. Creatures with [PET] and any of the above tags will be available on embark, if they are native to a biome your civ has already settled in and your civ qualifies on the alignment/underground tokens. Creatures with [PET] *without* any of those tags are indistinguishable from creatures who don't have the [PET] tag. | ||||
| Steps To Reproduce | Gen a world. Start an embark. View the eggs available to the civ - in vanilla, nearly all small birds are [PET]s. Every species which has eggs available, and the [PET] tag, should be available for you to bring on embark - but they aren't. | ||||
| Additional Information | This has been around for a long time, since 34.08 at least. I just figured someone had to have reported it already. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| related to | 0010532 | new | Animals without certain tags will not spawn in sites even if forced to be present |
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They can be tamed, I think, but they just show up in the Animals tab of the z-screen, don't they? I may be wrong on this, but I remember seeing a decent number of creatures on that screen - more than you could embark with. You're right about not being able to embark with them, but I'm not entirely sure that's not intentional. |
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@Talvieno, but you *can* embark with one-humped or two-humped camels, which are [PET] without [COMMON_DOMESTIC] - because they have [PACK_ANIMAL]. And if you mod an underground creature (found in level 1) [PET], they're sometimes* available on embark/from dwarven caravans as well. If [PET]s aren't supposed to be available at embark, why are [PET]s with [PACK_ANIMAL], [WAGON_PULLER] and/or [UNDERGROUND_DEPTH:1] available? *depending on whether or not they're found in areas the civ has already settled, presumably |
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Oh, and they also don't show up in the animals->overall training tab of fortress mode. The animals reported on there as "domesticated" are all ones you can bring at embark, and the ones reported as "general familiarity" are underground [PET_EXOTIC]s. (Possibly also [PACK_ANIMAL] or [WAGON_PULLER] exotics, I haven't modded any of those in though.) |
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Good points. I concede. It doesn't seem like it's working correctly, you're right. |
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Here's another interesting thing. If it's a (not [COMMON_DOMESTIC]) [PET], and a [PACK_ANIMAL] or [WAGON_PULLER], it is *only* available at embark. You can't import any more from your home civ, and you won't get any migrants dragging any along. However, if it's a [PET] and [UNDERGROUND_DEPTH:1], you *can* import them, and will get migrants with pet ones. |
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This is still in effect in 44.02. I had hoped that it would have been fixed with the Kobold animal stuff so I tested it out. I haven't tried reproducing the COMMON_DOMESTIC functionality using the new ANIMAL tags yet, so it's possible there is a workaround. I will report when I have given it a try. |
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The [ANIMAL] tags instead filter out & ban classes of animals from roles in the civ rather than enable them outright (but the tag is still new & being worked out by modders so i could be wrong or tangential bugs afflicting) so i doubt that would be helpful to your findings. EI - [ANIMAL_NEVER_PET] on [ANIMAL_TOKEN:DOG] and dogs won't appear as pets though they have [PET] & [COMMON_DOMESTIC] (unless as file changes note, 2 definitions make a ALWAYS out of a NEVER if common domestic counts) A misconception i have spotted in your summary is that [PET_EXOTIC] is elf-only, this is untrue but due to [ANY_PET_RACE] entity tags, allows them to automatically assume [PET_EXOTIC] creatures immediately from the vicinity into the civ. Giant cave spiders are used by kobolds as being 'legal' determined by the new entity [ANIMAL] tag to own as pets since they already have [PET_EXOTIC], are first layer & are [SAVAGE] to add onto your findings. [PET_EXOTIC] creatures can be domesticated by [MILITARY_STRATEGY] leaders going "into the wilds" or the "depths of the earth" (more commonly) to tame them in world-generated events, in which happen irregularly and as to the details of this issue report may not benefit. Anecdotally i have been in world generations where GCS was availible to embark with for my dwarven civilisation, but cost a 1000 embarkation points due to pet value for a fully tame individual. There is no present science, but the full domestication of the GCS by these events may have been made as a product of the creature's value, wheras a much less valuable creature might be only partially tamed (taming difficulty = pet value) in a selection process that only activates seemingly once per species randomly with [PET] have general civ knowledge & exotic having no civ knowledge as a core difference in 'difficulty' |
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The summary was written in 2014, before the [ANIMAL] tag existed, and therefore was accurate at the time it was written. I have never seen a non-PET animal available at embark since I began playing in 0.34.11, including in worlds where I have confirmed that MILITARY_STRATEGY leaders have "tamed" animals in worldgen. Do you happen to remember what the version was when you saw GCS available at embark? Since I first submitted this ticket over three years ago I have been on the lookout for a fix in every release, using my personal mods which add [PET] to naked mole dogs and remove [COMMON_DOMESTIC] from a number of non-essential, wild-available animals. It is possible that, before the introduction of the [ANIMAL] tag last week, there were exceptions to the observations I've laid out above; but if they exist, I've never seen them. |
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This issue is still relevant into the raw changes & changelog of 44.07 but can probably be closed since that version delivered a short term resolution to a very old bug report in off map creature uses being integrated and realized badly in play for vanilla. It highlighted the root of the problem with 0010613 before the raiding for [PET] discriminatory behavior was added, in regards to reliance on [PET]/[PET_EXOTIC] tags for fortress use. For this reason Toady added [PET] to unicorns & beak dogs with the intent to not deny players the ability to take them from sites where previously the creatures brought to site were incompatible and buggy. Though other tagged creatures with [MOUNT] etc. can join as non-fortress AI compatible civ creatures in circumstances, but not be taken away from sites and should be suitably modified first before being put into a player controlled civilisation through tags that allow it like [COMMON_DOMESTIC] that beak dogs have in favour of [PET] or [PET_EXOTIC] A prime example are trolls, in which in play conflicts with hardcoded [USE_EVIL_CREATURES] natural placing of evil slow learners despite having no tags making them unable to be handled without modding and also buggy even with the tag applied. But fortunately intelligent livestock creatures cannot be taken off site by intentional coding design by toady so does not impact the vanilla experience typically. A use of [ANIMAL_ALWAYS_AVAILABLE] also allows you to embark with [PET_EXOTIC] creatures without the use of [COMMON_DOMESTIC] and import them via traders and embarkation. Tying up loose ends. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2014-07-31 12:35 | Button | New Issue | |
| 2014-07-31 12:50 | Talvieno | Note Added: 0028048 | |
| 2014-07-31 12:50 | Talvieno | Note Edited: 0028048 | |
| 2014-08-01 17:46 | Button | Note Added: 0028112 | |
| 2014-08-01 17:53 | Button | Note Added: 0028113 | |
| 2014-08-01 18:41 | Talvieno | Note Added: 0028115 | |
| 2014-11-18 12:03 | Button | Note Added: 0031059 | |
| 2017-11-26 13:23 | Button | Note Added: 0037035 | |
| 2017-11-26 13:24 | Button | Note Edited: 0037035 | |
| 2017-11-26 14:30 | FantasticDorf | Note Added: 0037036 | |
| 2017-11-26 14:31 | FantasticDorf | Note Edited: 0037036 | |
| 2017-11-26 14:40 | FantasticDorf | Note Edited: 0037036 | |
| 2017-11-28 16:57 | Button | Note Added: 0037083 | |
| 2018-01-17 13:27 | Loci | Relationship added | related to 0010532 |
| 2018-03-22 10:02 | FantasticDorf | Note Added: 0037995 |
