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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0008001Dwarf FortressAdventure Mode -- Sitespublic2014-08-14 07:552020-05-10 23:15
Reporterchaosvolt Assigned Touser6 
PrioritynormalSeveritytweakReproducibilityalways
Status confirmedResolutionopen 
Product Version0.40.08 
Summary0008001: Elf/dwarf sites can't be claimed (lack leaders and power locations)
DescriptionUnlike human hamlets and towns, elven and dwarven site governments lack the direct equivalent to lords/ladies. When asking about that site's local government, a group will be mentioned without specifying who's in charge of that group. This means that laying claim to the site has no effect, as there isn't an essential person to kill or drive off to prompt the "you are now in control" message.

As with human law-givers, dwarven monarchs and elven queens will be mentioned if you about the rulers in a site they live in, but they are separate from the abstract group ruling the site itself.
Steps To Reproduce1. Start an dwarf or elf adventurer.
2. Ask about the local ruler.
Additional InformationPrior experiments in replicating the effects of generated lords and law-givers (via reading the histories of multiple worlds, examining the string dump, and looking into what position tokens do) led me to narrow down the apparent cause of this.

The apparent requirements are a combination of the tokens [SITE], [RULES_FROM_LOCATION], and [RESPONSIBILITY:LAW_MAKING]. Law-making plus ruling from a location is what makes law-givers, monarchs, and queens noteworthy enough to gain the "seat of power is here" message, but lack any association with a site.

Barons, counts, and dukes aren't even mentioned due to being appointed nobles without the [SITE] token, and don't have the [RULES_FROM_LOCATION] either (that's the mayor's shtick). Mayors have everything except the law-making responsibility, again resulting in them not being considered in charge of the group ruling a site.

Meanwhile elves lack ANY site-bound positions, making all their essential roles tied to the civilization itself.
Tags0.40.08, administrative positions, adventurer mode, claim, conquest, Intentional/Expected?, position

Activities

dree12

2014-08-14 10:33

reporter   ~0029031

Confirmation: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141310

chaosvolt

2014-08-14 15:03

reporter   ~0029055

What's odd is, after having mimicked the effects of the human lord's position successfully, I'm having trouble getting the same combination of tokens to work with an elven or dwarven position.

chaosvolt

2014-08-14 15:48

reporter   ~0029058

Last edited: 2014-08-14 16:08

 Okay, I went and copied the mocked-up lord position as-is into each civ, made sure no standard positions would compete with them, and tested them. Only the human civ allowed me to gain control of a site, so it seems there's something more to this issue, which I think might be tied to how local lords are referred to as ruling from a location in their site of residence.

I'm thinking it might also require the [BUILDS_OUTDOOR_FORTIFICATIONS] token in the entity, as well. Time for some !!SCIENCE!! on this.

EDIT: Confirmed, plus some complications. The fortifications tag, plus a position filling the requirements mentioned earlier, allows conquest. Problem is that that token no longer works with site types other than towns.

user6

2014-08-14 16:49

  ~0029060

I'm pretty sure this is intentional (one of many things that was unfinished in this release) but I'll leave it open.

chaosvolt

2014-08-15 01:10

reporter   ~0029077

While I'm at it, I kinda wish I'd science'd up the issue further before reporting, as now it's a "tweak" bug that in fact can't be tweaked, and might be better re-categorized as minor instead.

I'd also add the requirement of fortifications and towns, and thus the fact the issue can't be fixed without fundamentally altering elven and dwarven flavor, if I could edit the "additional notes" section. ._.

smjjames

2014-08-15 10:02

reporter   ~0029097

Like Footkerchief said, it's one of those unfinished things. Insurrections making all shops turn into taverns ( 0007764 ) probably should be looked at first.

chaosvolt

2014-08-26 10:19

reporter   ~0029663

Last edited: 2014-08-26 13:16

 Assigned to...hmm. Not sure what that'll entail. O.o

chaosvolt

2016-02-11 12:48

reporter   ~0034640

So dare I ask what it means when an issue is self-assigned?

This has been in assigned status for over a year.

user8971

2016-02-16 00:55

  ~0034678

I see these assignments as who-is-supervising-this-report rather than who-is-working-on-fixing-this-issue as it is used in other projects. When Toady wants to fix some issue he just goes and does so and then assigns it to himself, to mark that given report no more needs close supervision of one of managers. Not assigned reports usually mean not-yet-checked-by-one-of-managers.

chaosvolt

2016-03-07 09:52

reporter   ~0034801

Ah, I see. That makes sense.

Witty

2016-06-06 14:52

reporter   ~0035357

It's interesting to note that dark fortress sites do actually have a mead hall like area in the upper parts of the spiral. This area tends to contain the demon master, but I've also found lords/ladies in this area as well. It seems that the demon master suffers from the same problem as monarchs and law-givers in that they only rule over the civ, and not the capital area itself.

chaosvolt

2016-06-07 09:19

reporter   ~0035362

Do what now? Strange, as I've tested trying to bump off goblin lords in the past.

Has that element of the bug been accidentally fixed then? Interesting.

FantasticDorf

2020-01-07 08:50

reporter   ~0039657

Last edited: 2020-01-08 01:18

 I can confirm for 44.12 modding a rule from location custom noble with [SITE] will incur the demon-master to share the dark-tower's throne room. [REQUIRES_MARKET],[SITE] and [RULES_FROM_LOCATION] will establish them in each established tower of that civ specifically rather than pits in the evil entity example.

FantasticDorf

2020-01-07 08:53

reporter   ~0039658

Its a proposed simple solution to the original issue report and they shouldnt step-over one another in authority because of the demon-masters hardcoded monarch position for wider control over nobles or sites under them.

Lack of elves locally rulng may be responsible to incomplete site maps, such as dungeons for holding prisoners (and areas to gather nobles) so Toady didn't fill it in perhaps.

chaosvolt

2020-05-10 23:15

reporter   ~0040538

That does not address the main issue, actually. I am aware that goblin sites CAN have a power location that permits conquest, and if they generate a lord then at least in some versions they'll be vulnerable to conquest all the same.

The issue that took me a bit of post-OP messing about to realize is that elven and dwarven sites seem to lack any zone they can rule from, IN ADDITION to none of the positions being put together in the right way to count as lords.

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Note

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
2014-08-14 07:55 chaosvolt New Issue
2014-08-14 07:59 chaosvolt Tag Attached: administrative positions
2014-08-14 07:59 chaosvolt Tag Attached: adventurer mode
2014-08-14 07:59 chaosvolt Tag Attached: position
2014-08-14 07:59 chaosvolt Tag Attached: 0.40.08
2014-08-14 07:59 chaosvolt Tag Attached: claim
2014-08-14 07:59 chaosvolt Tag Attached: conquest
2014-08-14 10:28 user6 Summary Elven and dwarven cities cannot be conquered => Elven and dwarven cities cannot be conquered, since they don't have a leader to kill
2014-08-14 10:33 dree12 Note Added: 0029031
2014-08-14 15:03 chaosvolt Note Added: 0029055
2014-08-14 15:48 chaosvolt Note Added: 0029058
2014-08-14 16:08 chaosvolt Note Edited: 0029058
2014-08-14 16:48 user6 Summary Elven and dwarven cities cannot be conquered, since they don't have a leader to kill => Elven and dwarven cities sites can't be claimed (lack leaders and power locations)
2014-08-14 16:49 user6 Summary Elven and dwarven cities sites can't be claimed (lack leaders and power locations) => Elf/dwarf sites can't be claimed (lack leaders and power locations)
2014-08-14 16:49 user6 Tag Attached: Intentional/Expected?
2014-08-14 16:49 user6 Note Added: 0029060
2014-08-15 01:10 chaosvolt Note Added: 0029077
2014-08-15 10:02 smjjames Note Added: 0029097
2014-08-20 13:24 user6 Assigned To => user6
2014-08-20 13:24 user6 Status new => confirmed
2014-08-26 10:19 chaosvolt Note Added: 0029663
2014-08-26 13:16 chaosvolt Note Edited: 0029663
2016-02-11 12:48 chaosvolt Note Added: 0034640
2016-02-16 00:55 user8971 Note Added: 0034678
2016-03-07 09:52 chaosvolt Note Added: 0034801
2016-06-06 14:52 Witty Note Added: 0035357
2016-06-07 09:19 chaosvolt Note Added: 0035362
2020-01-07 08:50 FantasticDorf Note Added: 0039657
2020-01-07 08:53 FantasticDorf Note Added: 0039658
2020-01-08 01:18 FantasticDorf Note Edited: 0039657
2020-05-10 23:15 chaosvolt Note Added: 0040538